LA Story with David Judson of Judson Studios

In 1897, The Judson Studios was established in Los Angeles by the painter and professor William Lees Judson and his three sons. Helmed by Walter Horace, the eldest son and a stained glass expert, the Studios thrived from the start, beautifying the booming metropolis with works that represented the best in traditional and modern design. Today, Judson is the oldest family-run stained glass studio in America, still proudly offering an exquisite, handcrafted product made by local artisans, and continuing to serve the community that has sustained us through the decades. 

Today I’m speaking with David Judson. 

He’s been working hard to grow and stretch his family business into exciting new territories and  has recently released Judson: Innovation in Stained Glass , a book to document the nearly 125-year history of Judson Studios. We're going to chat about that, as well as the power of collaboration, current and future projects happening at Judson and the unique impact and legacy David would like to leave with the industry. 
Join me as I crack it all wide open!

To see more of the work coming out of Judson Studios, their instagram is @judsonstudios and their website is judsonstudios.com.

Honorable mentions from this episode:

Where to find the book:
"JUDSON: Innovation in Stained Glass"
judsonstudios.com/product
(There's a 20% discount available to the Cracked Patreon members! Join here or link below.)

The waterjet used at Judson is made by Omax:
omax.com

Judson artist collaborations:
judsonstudios.com/artistcollaborations

James Jean instagram
@jamesjeanart

Canfield Technologies
Canfield sets the standard for the Stained Glass industry.

Youghiogheny Glass Company
Stained glass sheets and glass products for the art and stained glass industry.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello and welcome back to Cracked with Siobhan Aris. In 1897, Judson Studios was established in Los Angeles by the painter and professor William Lees Judson and his three sons. Helmed by Walter Horace, the eldest son, and a stained glass expert, the studios thrived from the start, beautifying the booming metropolis with works that represented the best in traditional and modern designs. Today, Judson is the oldest family-run stained glass studio in America, We'll be right back. Thank you to this episode's sponsor Canfield Technologies whose diverse line of products allows you to find a stained glass and jewelry solder to meet your needs. Find out more at canfieldmetals.com. Let's get into it shall we? Join me as I crack it all wide open. Hi, how are you?

SPEAKER_02 1:23

How are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 1:24

I'm good. Right as I was about to be real settled in and ready for this, a huge spider just walked past my foot. Threw me off a little bit. How's it going? Real

SPEAKER_02 1:36

good. Yeah. So yeah, spiders are not fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

No, I'm sure that one's totally harmless, but I was thinking, well, what if he crawls up my leg while I'm talking? And that'll be a whole other thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

yeah yeah there's something about spiders indoors versus outdoors there's a big difference

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Yeah. And I feel like, yeah, I talked to all about this. I just interviewed Judith Schechter and we talked about, so I guess they have house centipedes in, um, in Philadelphia where she lives.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

And they're really big and they eat other bugs, but we were just talking about how, well, I was saying that I don't like spiders because I feel like they have too many points of contact to like, hold on to you. And she was like, well, you really wouldn't like the centipedes that we have around here. And I was like, yeah,

SPEAKER_02 2:28

yeah. Remind me where you are.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

So I'm in the Berkshires. I'm in Massachusetts.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

Got

SPEAKER_01 2:37

it. I used to be in Los Angeles.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

All right.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

I was there for almost 20 years.

SPEAKER_02 2:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:43

And I was looking at the address, actually. And are you guys in Highland Park?

SPEAKER_02 2:47

We are.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

Okay, cool. I used to live in Highland Park.

SPEAKER_02 2:50

No way.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

Yeah. I lived on Raphael, which is just off of 52nd. Okay. So if you take, it's right between Fig and York. If you take, you know, if you go up one of those side streets off of York and it's right up there on the hill before you come back down to Fig.

SPEAKER_02 3:09

Amazing.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:11

That's great. When were

SPEAKER_01 3:14

you there? We left in 2017. Okay. And I was just there last week. Actually, I was just there the day before yesterday. And I, yeah, I drove past my old house and every time I come, I always have to do like the creepy slow drive by my old houses and see what they've done. And if they've changed anything, I can't believe you didn't come see us. I had no idea. I don't know why, but I thought you were downtown. I mean, not that that's far, but you know, I'm also like I'm this tight schedule every time I come where I'm trying to see every single friend. And it was my daughter's birthday. We went to Disneyland. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. But I'll be back. I'll be back in two weeks, actually.

SPEAKER_02 4:02

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

I have an install in Pasadena.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

Fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Yeah. And you have a location there.

SPEAKER_02 4:11

South Pasadena.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

It's new.

SPEAKER_02 4:15

Uh, well, um, let's see. So South Pasadena is fairly new. We've been there about five years.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 4:24

And, um, and then actually last week we have now a third location in Alhambra.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

You do. Oh my gosh. Well, I know that the Pasadena location is more for, um, kiln work, right? And then the original, the OG location in Highland Park is all the stained glass stuff. So what's happening in Alhambra?

SPEAKER_02 4:50

So Alhambra is kind of an expansion. So we're kind of, we need more square footage. And we also acquired like the equipment of a company that was closing down called Ultra Glass, which did a lot of kiln forming and that kind of stuff in commercial glass.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

But so we purchased most of their gas kilns and And they had a lamination system that we really wanted to acquire. And it's big. So we needed kind of some square footage. And we're about to start a project that wasn't going to fit in our South Pass location. So we have to find some more space for that, too. So yeah, so it's a little muddy. But I like to say good problems, right? We have good problems right now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:42

Yeah. Yeah. Gosh. And that's a little bit of a hike. How far is it for you?

SPEAKER_02 5:47

Actually, it only, uh, it's only about 12 minutes. I've been timing it. It's only about 12 minutes away. So that is the issue though, right? Like in LA and trying to find space and property. It's not like you can, you know, it's not like we're in the middle of the country where you can find a lot of square footage. It's just not being in LA. It's not, it's not an option. And especially right now, the market is like incredibly difficult. It's definitely a seller's market right now. And, and, um, you We had to get the space. Every time we started looking, we realized, okay, we need more space to build this project. Everything we pursued was gone. You'd see something listed, you'd call, and it's like, nope, sorry, it's gone. We had trouble finding space. We finally found this one spot, and I said, you know, great, let's, you know, hop on it. Well, you know, he's just like, well, I've got multiple offers and blah, blah, blah, all this kind of stuff. So I had to start, luckily the artists that we're working with, you know, knew somebody who knew the, the, the, the person who was trying to sublease. And so, so anyway, we had to play all of that, that scenario. So, yeah, but, but, but it's, it's good. We got everything. We had to, we had to, everything kind of just happened really fast. Like we, we purchased all this equipment. The woman who owned the company had to be out of her building. So we had to like go and like do major equipment move, which all happened actually literally last week. And so we spent the week moving these 10 by 15 foot kilns, this massive lamination system, everything had to be moved out like by Friday. And so we had these moving companies moving this stuff out. And so now everything's just kind of jammed into this one, our new location. We're now kind of like getting our bearings and trying to reorganize everything and figure out what happens next.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

Now, did you factor the cost of this new space into the cost of this piece? That's huge. Were you like, well, we have to find a new space for it.

SPEAKER_02 7:46

Oh, yeah, it's been crazy, Sean. It's like one of these projects that just keeps like evolving, you know, and so you get to get into it. And when you start, you know, where we're at now, we've been working on it for two and a half years, and we haven't even started production. It's that kind of insane. And so, yeah, the costing and all of that stuff has been kind of a moving target. And, you know, we've had to, you know, find, you know, just find ways to kind of do that, because it's all new to me, too. It's like, this is nothing that I've ever done. And so I'm kind of winging it as well. And so it's, it's tricky, but you know, I love it. You know, it's, it's like, you know, I think we're all kind of love these projects that come and surprise us, right. You learn something new. I think that's kind of why we love working in, in glass and doing these projects. We're constantly learning from them and pushing ourselves and all that kind of stuff. So I think it's a, it's part of the territory.

SPEAKER_01 8:39

It's cool though, that you're doing something different because you, you are, do you want to tell us who you are and what your, who your family

SPEAKER_02 8:46

Sure. Yeah, I'm David Judson, Judson Studios, and fifth generation, actually, of our family business. And this year, we're actually turning 125. We started in 1897. And so, we're kind of celebrating. Hopefully, in the fall, we're going to have some celebrations to kind of recognize that milestone. But I've only been involved with the company, well, maybe 25 years of that. So, yeah. I actually started in our company and in the centennial year, I was one of the reasons why I came and started working at the company. And, um, so it's, um, uh, I've been involved since 1996, 97 and, um, working in glass since then. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

Okay. So you didn't, you, you, you went off and did your own thing and then came back to it. Sounds like.

SPEAKER_02 9:39

Yeah. Yeah. I, I, you know, went to school and, uh, you know, I had kind of, you know, grew up around the studio and learned, you know, the craft and, you know, worked summer jobs, you know, all that kind of stuff in the studio. And so, you know, then I hit my kind of teenage rebellious years and it was like the, I wanted to get as far away as I could. Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

So

SPEAKER_02 10:03

I went to study in San Diego for a few years and then I went, I joined a study abroad program and I moved to Madrid and I lived in Madrid for a couple of years and actually finished my degree there. with Spain. It was like, I don't know, it was very liberating for me and kind of, you know, being anonymous and, you know, just doing all different kinds of things that had nothing to do with glass that, you know, was like where I was at that point in my life. And so then I came back and I worked at the studio and I went to grad school. I studied international relations, actually, and was interested in pursuing politics and state department and all that kind of stuff. And then I went back to Madrid. I worked at an international organization called the World Tourism Organization, believe it or not, the first WTO. Now we know WTO is World Trade Organization. But anyway, I was really interested in that, and that was in the early 90s. And it was... you know, the more I was involved with a large bureaucratic organization, the less I liked it, right? It was like I met people that worked at the State Department and it was just like, you know, this is, you know, I miss the creative world and working with artists and all that kind of stuff. And so when I came back to LA, you know, really to finish my degree, I started, you know, international relations. I started, you know, taking classes in the art school and that kind of stuff. And everyone was like, what are you doing? Like, don't understand what I was doing. For me, it was really intriguing, you know, to kind of see what I could do and where I could push that, you know, and I was at USC here in LA and they had a public art program at that time. And so I started taking these classes and kind of looking, you know, exploring what they call it, you know, this terminology of self-power, right? And culture and the arts and things like that. And so, you know, I kind of went down that line, but, and then the company turned 100 years old in 1897 and says, oh, come and I'll help out with that. And, you know, I opened up an art gallery here at the original site, kind of, you know, dragging reluctantly kind of reintegrating myself into the company, but wanting to do it in a little bit of a different tact. And so, you know, part of it too, is that when I came into the company, most of the designers that were working here were kind of like retirement age, Eastern Europeans, right? Like, those were the classically trained artists at that time. And we we were doing such traditional work. That was kind of, it just isn't sustainable. We've got to figure out another way. And so by opening up the art gallery, you know, I was kind of bringing in the art world of LA and especially Holland Park in this Northeast area, which is, you know, pretty heavy, heavily populated by artists. Bringing them here and kind of just doing art shows, not even glass related, just mostly painting, traditional painting, technical stuff, you know, that kind of, you know, could relate late or translate into blast or, you know, have some kind of connection. And so it was kind of, you know, it was fun. It was my, at that age, it was really fun for me to do. And we had great, you know, openings and stuff like that. So it was a lot of fun to do. And, you know, that's how we kind of recruited some artists as well to the studio.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

That's amazing. That's very like, kind of what's happening now, right? Are you seeing and feeling like the new vibe, the new energy coming into stained glass and it getting more popular, a little bit more of a surge?

SPEAKER_02 13:33

Uh, yes. Um, you know, I, I didn't realize that to be honest, you know, I like listening to your show and, and, and seeing an Instagram stuff like that. It's like, wow, there's, there's like amazing stuff going on. Right. And, and like younger people getting involved and doing amazing things. And it's like, wow, there's so much great stuff happening out there. Uh, yeah. it's super exciting to see. And, um, you know, uh, for me, I just, you know, it's always been a part of my life, right. It's like being born in it. It's kind of one of those things where I don't really think about it so much. Uh, but, uh, cause I was always like the weird person, right. Like, you know, back in the day, I was like staying glad, you know, when you're growing up, you're like, Oh yeah, my, my family's staying glass company. It was like, what, what is that? You know, it's like such a strange thing. And so, um, uh, you know, know i just haven't known anything differently and that's kind of i think why i kind of fought my way back into this uh in a way or or fought it you know coming back because it was something that you know i i had to find my own identity in it right it's like being being from a family business you know and being involved with it your whole life it's kind of like you have to find yourself within all of that and so uh that's that's kind of been my my struggle throughout the whole process and um well i shouldn't say struggle but my journey you know it's been fun i've really enjoyed it but um yeah working with artists is is really what kind of motivates me now and and um i love uh bringing painters in artists that you know may not have a lot of experience or any experience in glass and bring them into the studio that was one of the reasons why we built the new fusing studio was that um we wanted to create an environment where where artists could come in and work in glass right like because you think about how difficult it is right not only for all the studio setup and all the equipment you need and all the skill set you need for this particular medium, it's a hurdle to get into. And so we wanted to kind of break that down and see like, okay, let's get artists in here. And they also don't know what they don't know, which is the other beauty of it. It's like come in and they ask for things that may not be possible, but it forces us to kind of think about, okay, well, why don't we do this? And it kind of pushes us to try new things as well. And so that constant reinvention of, of what we're doing in the studio is, is, you know, super intriguing to me and, you know, fusing was a whole nother kind of, uh, round that I had no plans or idea of getting into. It just kind of happened.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

They're kind of sisters.

SPEAKER_02 16:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:15

And the studios come down through your paternal line, correct? I'm assuming based on the last name. Um, is your father still with us?

SPEAKER_02 16:22

He's

SPEAKER_01 16:24

not.

SPEAKER_02 16:38

Uh, you know, it's, I think he would have loved it. You know, I don't think it's not his thing. Right. I mean, he was, my father was very traditional. He wore bow ties, you know, always wore a tie, shaved twice a day. It was super conservative. You know, it was like, um, uh, you know, loved working with priests and all the religious work that, you know, we were doing at that time. And, and, uh, it was just a very different thing that I was doing, but I think he would have loved what's happening now. Um, in a way, you know, he, um, he was a very, you know, an amazing guy. Everyone loved him and he was a super nice guy and everything like that. And I think he would have, you know, I think he was just comfortable in a certain place that, you know, was not my thing. And so, but, you know, he taught me so much, you know, he's just like this fountain of knowledge. It was so great, you know, when we, when I, you know, cause I did get a chance to work with him before he passed here at the studio. And, you know, you could just turn around and ask him something and he could, you know, you know, he just, his knowledge was endless and staying last. And so it was an amazing resource. And so, you know, that was kind of a big blow when he passed and, you know, I lost all of that immediately, but, you know, learned a lot, you know, got an amazing library collection and get a lot of good experiences. So yeah, I was real lucky in that way.

UNKNOWN 18:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

You have a new book that you just came out with right at the beginning of the pandemic, actually, correct?

SPEAKER_02 18:08

Yeah. Actually, we were supposed to have a book launch party on March 19th or whatever. It was literally the day we were supposed to launch the book. So

SPEAKER_01 18:19

yeah,

SPEAKER_02 18:20

it was tricky.

UNKNOWN 18:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

It's beautiful. It's a hardcover. It's 12 by 9 inches. So it's a nice, heavy coffee table book that you want to have out. And it is called Judson, Innovation in Stained Glass, a book to document the nearly 125-year history of Judson Studios, your family, and some of the work that they've done. It has a lot of history in it, a lot of really incredible photos. And you worked on it with some Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

Um, you know, it's, it's hard to say a favorite project. Cause I think like the projects that are in there, a lot of my favorites, because it was so hard, right. To go through a hundred years of history and like find, uh, the ones that would fit in the book, right. It's just, you know, so much material to kind of get through. And so I think a lot of those, I mean, the projects that are in the book are all somewhat favorites for a particular reason, you know, and, and, um, you know, the idea of the book was that I wanted it to be not just another history of stained glass studio book. It's part of the reason why I picked Stephanie to work with is that she's more of a journalist and coming from the design world and understands the history of design and stuff in LA. I think glass, we need to look at glass from that perspective, that point of view. Glass is so amazing and diverse and versatile. I think I think it's left out of the conversations of that realm more often than it should be, right? And so I wanted to approach it from a very diverse perspective of like how it evolved with the art and the design world, not only kind of historically in the country, but also specifically to Los Angeles as well, because Los Angeles has been, we're such a kind of involved with the history of Los Angeles and been here for over 125 years. that there's not that many companies out there that can say that. And so I really wanted to kind of highlight that and kind of how things evolved and how, you know, Glass fits in with our history and continues to do so, right? And I think, you know, but it's constantly a battle. Like for some reason, Glass is never really kind of front and center in this realm, but I think it needs more attention. And so I wanted the the book to really capture that, like how glass dialogues with art and architecture and design and, you know, environment, right? I mean, it has such an important aspect of effect on our environment. And I, and I just think that's kind of doesn't get enough attention. And so I really wanted to kind of address it like that, as opposed to like the history of stained glass, you know, there's, there's plenty of books out there that do that. And so, so I hope, you know, that that kind of comes across and, you know, and, and, you know, how it works in, you know, whether it's Franklin ride or mortuaries, you know, or, or mausoleums, I mean, or, or churches or homes, or, you know, it's such a diverse material that I think we it's, it's just how would you say it's the underdog, right. Of materials out there. And so it's, you know, I wanted also to kind of capture, you know, some of the beautiful spaces that get overlooked, right? Often too. So, um, so yeah, I, I can't say that there's a favorite in there. Um, one favorite, but, uh, you know, one exciting thing is like the, uh, a project we're working on right now for restoration is the Air Force Academy Chapel, uh, which is in Colorado Springs and that's actually faceted glass. And we're, um, my grandfather project did that project in 1960, early sixties. And, um, you know, that building is just so amazing and contemporary looking. We're currently restoring all of the windows. It's like 2,200 panels

SPEAKER_00 23:03

of

SPEAKER_02 23:03

windows, almost 30,000 pieces of glass that we're basically just cleaning them because they're restoring the whole building. Projects like that are just really intriguing for me because not only because it's something that my grandfather did and was involved with and being able to be a part of that But, you know, you learn something from those projects that kind of informs you for moving forward as well and what we're doing now. And so to see that up close and see those windows and be able to kind of get back into it is, you know, it's a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

That's really sweet. It's really sweet that your family made it and now you're going back to restore

SPEAKER_02 23:47

it. Yeah, it's fun.

UNKNOWN 23:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:51

Let's see. The book really is, it's a love letter to LA. It is. Yeah,

SPEAKER_02 23:55

it

SPEAKER_01 23:56

is. And with stained glasses, especially the version that I have, I have like the press release and then I have like a PDF version of it. So I need the book so I can like really dig into it because all my writing is very tiny, but I got it. I got a vibe. I like it.

SPEAKER_02 24:09

I'll send you one. Yeah. And I think, you know, part of that is, I think LA is, is, you know, super important to the art world. Again, you know, it's always gets second, you know, bill to say like New York or something like that. But, but, you know, I've feel super lucky that we're in LA and you've been here you know what it's like it's it's like there's so much going on I think you know we're just so lucky to be in LA and all of the creative energy that's in LA and so I think that needed to be recognized and yeah I think we'll continue continue to be that way you know it's just yeah it's it's fun to be here

SPEAKER_01 24:40

I agree Judson does so many different styles of stained glass

SPEAKER_02 24:47

I

SPEAKER_01 24:48

Do you personally have a favorite style?

SPEAKER_02 24:54

Um, that changes, you know, it evolves, you know, and so, um, yeah, that was the other thing that I, that I wanted to get across in the book is the diversity of, of work that's come out of the studio. And, and really I true that to the people that have come through the studio, you know, it's, it's like, we've only been as good as the people that are in it. And, and so, um, you know, uh, working with the artists, designers, craftspeople that, you know, have come through the studio, that's, that's really, I think, um, what's so amazing and, you know, kind of makes or breaks, you know, I think environments like that that we have. And so, you know, in terms of favorite work, you know, spent a lot of years when I really started in the traditional realm, like, like the arts and crafts, Byrne Jones, William Morris era, and the glass painting that was going on, just like, you know, intrigued me, like, and, you know, I spent years with artists working on that, and, and really pursuing and understanding that. And I think the beauty of that is really kind of like that time spent in that traditional realm really informed the ability to shift into the few and the more contemporary work, right? Which is now kind of my favorite style is this integration of fusing and traditional painting that we're doing. And, you know, I don't think we would have been able to do that without really fully understanding kind of the history and how glass painting works and the reason why you paint in glass, right? And how it's so different from other forms of painting. So now I would say, yeah, my favorite is kind of fusing and combining traditional painting with fusing is kind of my favorite thing. And that's really kind of where we're really seeing a lot of exciting things happen coming out of the studio.

SPEAKER_01 26:49

Yeah. And do you guys just do leaded glass or do you do copper foil as well as leaded?

SPEAKER_02 26:54

Yeah, we do leaded and copper foil. The copper foil obviously is a little bit harder on a larger scale projects, right? But it depends on what it is that we're doing. If you think about... you know, the way Tiffany used copper foil or the greens. I don't know if you've seen, you know, you've probably heard of green greenhouses. And so the greens were like amazing the way they use copper foil and the arts and crafts, you know, kind of realm. And so we do some of that. I mean, the beauty of like copper foil is that it could be so organic, right? You can really use it as manipulating lines and, you know, creating more negative space. And, you know, the other thing the greens did was that they texturized the solder a When they, you know, so when you walk up to like the front door of the Gamble House, for example, you see these amazing textural elements.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

That huge

SPEAKER_00 27:48

tree.

SPEAKER_02 27:49

Yeah, exactly. And, you know, the copper is almost like bark, right? It's part of the tree and they've texturized it. So when you go up, it almost looks like a natural organic surface. So, you know, I think there's a lot of, that depending on what the situation is, we use a different method. tricks based on that, but generally like most of our work to let

SPEAKER_01 28:13

it. Okay. In all the videos I saw online of like tours of the studio and interviews with you, I see a lot of artists sort of like bustling around the background, but do you do stained glass? Have you, do you, are you an artist as well? Or are you more on the admin set of things?

SPEAKER_02 28:29

I, I am not in the shop now in the studio. Now I used, you know, like I said, I grew up in the studio and, um, you know, started cementing and sweeping the floors and, um, You know, I didn't go to school to learn stained glass. I mean, I basically learned being in the studio and, you know, hanging out with the people who worked here. And, you know, I ended up spending most of my time cutting. You know, cutting was what I loved the most. First of all, because my hands were too soft to really glaze. I was kind of a, you know, I tried glazing. I'm like so amazed to see our glazers work, right? I can stand at their table and just watch them glaze all day, right? It's so mesmerizing and treating to watch a good craftsman, right? And so, but that wasn't my strength. I was more into the cutting and I loved cutting. I loved working with color, right? And like the complexity, I think one of the hardest things to do is to color a window, you know, because color's really a complicated thing. And, you know, a blue next to a purple, next to a yellow or blue, green or something, like that it's different it changes right and so you really have to find that balance and i to me and when you're cutting and selecting glass i think is really kind of um uh intriguing and fun to do and you know the other thing too is like when you pull out a sheet of glass and you run the glass cutter on it you know each sheet cuts differently right like you have to learn how to how to you know what the the glass is going to do you know and some glass will do things that other types of glass won't do or you know you're so you're depending it on the color and who makes the glass and, you know, how well it was a meal and all these things that, you know, you kind of almost can hear and see and feel and sense with the glass, right? It's like a, such a, such an amazing material to work with. So

SPEAKER_01 30:24

very tactile experience in glass. It's hard to explain unless you've done it for sure.

SPEAKER_02 30:28

Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 30:30

And one of the things that I say a lot on the podcast is that, you know, glass is very unique in the sense that a lot of people learn generationally or from family, friends, or from friends. And then some people learn through a more formal education. Obviously, you fall in the first category. Who was your point of contact for your education? Was it your dad that was teaching you how to do stuff? Or was it more like... some guy at the studio that you just really bonded with, that you spent the most time with?

SPEAKER_02 31:03

Yeah, there was actually a lot of guys that I bonded with in the studio. And so at different periods of when I was growing up and spending time in the studio and learning different things at different times, I was kind of attracted to spending more time with those people, depending on what it was. So I learned how to do faceted glass and how to cement or cutting, depending on who it was, because the people specialized here at the studio and what they did. And so my father wasn't really in the shop as well. He was more on the front end. And so I learned different things from him. I learned more history and that kind of thing from him, Whereas, yeah, the technical stuff I learned in the shop from the people that were working here.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

Got

SPEAKER_01 31:53

it. Do you have kids?

SPEAKER_02 31:55

I do. I have two kids. I have a son and a daughter, 19 and 16.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

Okay, so the next question applies. Are they interested?

UNKNOWN 32:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

Uh, it depends when you

SPEAKER_02 32:07

ask them, I think.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

Yeah. Which you can relate to, obviously.

SPEAKER_02 32:12

Exactly. Yeah. No. And, uh, I think so, you know, I think, I think the best thing that my parents did was not to like, they, I have two siblings and we were, none of us were encouraged to go into the business. And, um, I think that was the best thing they could have done. Right. I mean, I, cause like I rejected it for years and I didn't want to be a part of it for, for, you know, my, my, a lot of my teenage years, uh, in early twenties. Um, but you know, there's something about it that kind of draws you back in, right? Like you don't appreciate it until much later, right? And so, you know, I think my kids, you know, may or I mean, there's obviously a place for them if they decide that that's what they want to do, but that's not something we're going to force them to do. So

SPEAKER_01 32:55

yeah, I

SPEAKER_02 32:55

mean, we'll see.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

Does your wife work in art as well?

SPEAKER_02 33:00

She is an artist, but she doesn't work in art. She, we kind of, it's interesting, my wife and I I met. through USC where she was doing her PhD and I was doing my master's. So she's the brains of the family, we say. But she came from an art history background. She studied religious art and I had studied more politics. And then we kind of, you know, like we were like crossing ships. And so now she lives vicariously through me and I live vicariously through her. She used to teach at USC for quite a while. And then now she runs a nonprofit for human rights. And she collects women's narratives, you know, so, so like women that have been in usually kind of traumatic scenarios or war torn regions, she's collecting a database of those narratives that she's collecting over, over, you know, through two different parts of the world. And so, so yeah, we don't, we don't like professionally, we live very different lives, but we kind of, you know, kind of, live vicariously through each other in that kind of realm. And so it works, works out well, but

SPEAKER_01 34:15

yeah. Yeah. You guys are both doing very powerful work, but in very different ways, but it does seem like they would harmonize very well. I'm sure the dinner conversations are really interesting. It's funny. You went, so there's another connection to USC. Didn't your great grandfather, wasn't he the Dean?

SPEAKER_02 34:34

Yeah. So my, my great great grandfather was the first Dean of the school. And the original building that we're in, the building that we're in was the original School of Fine Arts and Architecture for USC. And so, yeah, he was a early, he was born in England and then immigrated to Brooklyn, actually farmed in Brooklyn with his family for a while, if you can believe that. And then went up to Canada and lived out in London, outside of London and London, Ontario, Canada. And then I was in the... to the World's Fair in 1893. He was involved with kind of the art building there and then came to California in 1893 and, you know, was here ever since. And so he was a painter, had always been a painter. He actually taught at the university level in Canada. And so he was one of the few, if you can imagine like LA in the 1890s, it was not a huge art movement. He was one of the few. And so, and one of the few with like, experience in teaching at the university level. And so he was what they call plein air painter. So he was painting the landscapes around Southern California and traveled around the Southwest and the Northwest as well, painting. And at that time he was an ardent Methodist and USC was a Methodist university. And so I think we don't know exactly how it all went down, but basically I think he was the perfect the candidate to kind of build the School of Fine Arts for them. And so I think they funded this building and it was, you know, here in Northeast LA at Highland Park is the arts and crafts kind of community of LA at that time. And so this was kind of the perfect home for it. And then in 1920, USC was centralizing its campus to where it is now downtown. And so then Judson moved in here. So Judson was in downtown until 1920 and then moved into this building we've been here for since.

SPEAKER_00 36:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 36:39

All

SPEAKER_00 36:39

right.

SPEAKER_01 36:42

What's your role for the Stained Glass Association of America? Oh,

SPEAKER_02 36:49

well, I am currently the president of the Stained Glass Association of America. I've been president far too long.

UNKNOWN 36:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 37:00

So, but I will be handing it off this summer in Toledo. So we have our conference coming up in Toledo, Ohio, um, which I'm super excited about. And, um, yeah, it's been, um, it's been quite a journey with the SGA, but you know, I, I, I, um, you know, I'd avoided the SG. My father was a president back in the day and then we kind of, you know, just, uh, lost track. We weren't putting my brother when worked at the studio for a while before I did and, uh, participated a bit here. He was involved the organization and then left. And it wasn't an interest to me to be involved with the organization originally and had no interest. And then we sent an artist up to one of the conferences and we hadn't been to one of the conferences in years. And so I think there's, cause they, they'd put a new requirement that you had to, you had to attend once every three years. And so we sent, sent him up and then, you know, it was kind of like, oh, okay, well I'll go check it out. And so I went and then before, I knew what I was on the board and before I knew that I was, you know, being kind of promoted. And when I got involved, I said, well, look, they're either going to, they're either going to throw me off the board or I'm going to have, you know, take on a little bit more responsibility. And so I ended up taking on a little bit more responsibility and getting a little bit more involved. And, you know, I really believe now in the organization. I think it's a really amazing place. I mean, I think, you know, kind of alluding to what we were saying earlier, about the nerve you've kind of struck in doing this podcast and reaching the community. And Instagram, I think, creates that kind of environment as well. But really, the SGA and the conference itself allows that kind of person-to-person contact, that sense of community that I think we all, as stained glass artists, kind of yearn for because... we are so isolated most of the year, right? Like, like you, you know, you go to your studio, right? You're working in stained glass. Like you run into stained glass people. Obviously you're interviewing everybody now, but the, the, you know, being working in stained glass is kind of a very unique kind of, I wouldn't say lonely, but like you're, there's not a lot of people doing it right in your community. So you're like

SPEAKER_01 39:14

this. Yeah,

SPEAKER_02 39:16

exactly. And so the beauty of the stained glass associations that you've, you've got this community that you can tap into. You know, I think it's changed a lot. You know, I think the SGA kind of went through a period where everyone thought it was, oh, it's just the big studios and that's what it is. And I don't think it's that anymore. You know, it's much more of a community of, I mean, it's still that, I mean, and it needs to be that because it's, you know, the SGA also represents the profession, right? So it's a, the association is at C6 as opposed to a C3, which means that it's a professional membership organization that can lobby, for example. And so at what point the association had to step in when they were talking, Congress was talking about completely eliminating lead, right? The use of lead in any profession. And so we were able to kind of lobby the government to kind of get St. Glass excluded from that. And so, you know, so we can still represent the profession in, you know, our professional kind of needs to a certain extent. But it's also really, I think more importantly a community where you know you hear a lot of stories of people that are very intimidated when they show up and then they start talking to people and they learn something and then all of a sudden boom they've just taken off right because it just opens up a whole set of doors and a body of knowledge that you wouldn't get otherwise and so I think it's super important that we have that and you know obviously the quarterly is an important part of that and so yeah so I think I think um, you know, we're seeing some, some, you know, a lot of people, uh, kind of coming new people coming to the conferences, which, you know, I, I would encourage people to do, cause it is a lot of fun. You know, it's, it's fun because you can talk shop, right? Like even with our, with our, with our, uh, spouses, right. They're like, you know, go talk to sting glass to somebody else. Right. And you go to the conference, it's like everyone, that's all everybody wants to talk about. So I think that's, that's an amazing thing. And, you know, I I think what's so important is the idea of sharing knowledge, right? You know, I think there was a period of time where a lot of the studios were kind of very tight and didn't want to share knowledge. And I think, you know, my philosophy is that the more you share, the more you get back. And so I think it's really important that you understand that and that, you know, the more you kind of communicate with people, the more it's kind of like all ships rise kind of thing. So, you know, I'm one of those believers.

UNKNOWN 41:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:51

the association, I think, plays a really important role in that. And, you know, it's tough because I think organizations nowadays, especially if you think about any kind of organization, especially an older one like the SGA, it's like evolving. It has to change with the times. And so I think that's, you know, been since I've been president, since I've been involved with the board is this idea of how we continue to evolve as an organization, because the needs are different now than I think they would have been, you know, 20, 30, 50 years ago. And so So I think it's really important that we continue to evolve. And I think that's, you know, part of the DNA now of the SGA is that while we're recognizing and serving kind of the more larger studios, traditional studios, I think that, you know, what's super important is that we're growing the community and bringing people in who wouldn't, you know, that are new, right, and younger and kind of looking for this kind of opportunity body of knowledge that, uh, is out there, you know? And, and I think that when you see these people kind of connecting at the conference, it's, it's just a lot of fun, um, because, you know, you can have these conversations that you can't have anywhere else.

SPEAKER_01 43:02

Yeah. Yeah. I'm in, I'm in a pretty sweet position where I do get to like sit down once a week and have these like very in-depth conversations about stained glass, but you know, yeah, definitely my partner is like, I got it. And then every time I try to talk to anybody, like my friends, like how's the podcast going. And I find myself starting to speed up and talking really fast. Cause I'm trying to like keep their attention about stained glass. They're like, uh-huh. So it's doing good.

SPEAKER_00 43:26

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:27

So that does seem pretty cool to be in a whole, you know, conference of people that are just into it.

SPEAKER_02 43:36

Yeah. You know, in that, uh, you know, COVID obviously in the pandemic kind of, uh, mess things up a little bit, but, but the idea of meeting face to face and, and, and seeing these people, like you create lifelong relationships. And so that's the beauty of that as well is that you don't, again, you don't have that opportunity anywhere else.

SPEAKER_01 43:54

Yeah. I... I'm speaking with Megan McElfrish next week. We're going to do a mini-sode, a little tiny one, all about the conference. So guys, stay tuned for that. That's coming. She'll have lots more details about what's going to be what there, what to expect. And if you want to know more about the SGAA, stainedglass.org is the website. There's tons of information there. There's also a directory we can connect with local members if you want to start having more of an in-person you know relationship with artists that live close to you if you want to find them um the sgq is a beautiful magazine that comes out quarterly um it's great even if even if it's just a hobby or if you have like a massive studio it's great it's i love i love it yeah do we already know who's going to be the next president is that no knowledge yet

SPEAKER_02 44:51

yeah it's brian stanton so he's our vice president first vice president and he's out of texas and um waco texas and so uh He's kind of been in charge of the magazine the last few years since we took it on as a board and have been kind of editing it as a board. And so he'll be stepping in as president.

SPEAKER_01 45:15

Okay. And then so will your role with the organization just end or are you stepping into a different role?

SPEAKER_02 45:26

Well, I'm going to take a little break and kind of assess. But yeah, I'll stay involved. And I don't want to completely disappear, which some former presidents have, and I don't blame them. But yeah, I hope to continue on to be involved with the organization. I don't know exactly how yet, but I need

SPEAKER_01 45:50

a little break. I like that. Stay loose. Stay open. Trust the universe. Absolutely. I want to read a little excerpt from the start of the book. It says, nearly five years ago, this book became a serious endeavor and proved to be much more difficult than I would have ever anticipated. The studio had just secured the largest commission in its history, and the scale and scope of the project forced me to rethink everything I knew, not only about stained glass, but about the history of my family's company. The decisions I found myself making were based on intuition rather than the historical facts or statistics. With so many changes going on, I suddenly felt things were getting risky, ultimately sending me down a path of soul searching and fact finding. The decision to complete a 3,400 square foot window in the technique of fused glass was a long-term decision. We had to build a completely new studio that would eventually need to produce a good amount of work to keep the doors open. I began wondering why no one, including my forefathers, had done something like this before. Why was the technique of fusing never incorporated into the body of work of any major studio? I began to to look back at various glass movements and styles over time, and my research inevitably led me into the archives of Judson Studios. I had no intentions of writing a book. Writing does not come easily to me, but the projects I came across seemed interesting, not only for the stories of stained glass, but also for the architecture that the windows were installed and the people who are commissioning them. So here you mentioned a project that was the largest that up until this date you had done. It's in Leawood, Kansas, correct? Yep. Okay. So it is 100 feet by 40 feet, which is equal to a basketball court. So the space that you're speaking about in this excerpt, you're talking about the Pasadena location, correct?

SPEAKER_02 47:48

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 47:49

Okay. Is the piece that you're working on now even larger? No.

SPEAKER_02 47:56

No.

SPEAKER_01 47:57

Okay. So this will remain the largest piece?

SPEAKER_02 48:03

Yes, as a single piece. Yeah, we're currently working on a project that's larger square footage wise, but it's like... it's a monastery and it's like multiple windows. So there's more square footage of glass, but yeah, there's very few, like 3,400 square feet windows right out there.

SPEAKER_01 48:23

Yeah. Wait, did I write that down? That is much larger. Oh no, that's

SPEAKER_02 48:26

right. Okay. The project we're working on now is three-dimensional. So that's why we couldn't fit it into our current studio. So it's called the Pagoda. It's actually a dome that it's like it's kind of like a geodesic dome if you think about a geodesic dome it's kind of like that but it's not exactly a geodesic dome and it'll be about um it's about 14 feet high by about 18 feet wide and then so you'll be able to actually walk inside of it so the entire kind of surface of it will be um fused glass

SPEAKER_00 49:04

okay

SPEAKER_02 49:05

um so that's why we couldn't fit it in our

SPEAKER_01 49:08

in our

SPEAKER_02 49:08

current facility

SPEAKER_01 49:10

are you working with Narcissus on this one as well?

SPEAKER_02 49:13

Narcissus is not involved with this project, really. This is a little bit different, but Narcissus is still working at the studio, but he's not involved with this project.

SPEAKER_01 49:23

You have done quite a few collaborations with different artists, a couple that I just want to chat about real quick. I want to know, how does it work when somebody comes to you that doesn't do glass, they're a painter or whatever, and they say, I really want to do that. I want to translate this into stained glass. Do they just kind of direct or do they get their hands in there? Are you teaching them how to do it as you're going? Or is it just like basically an extension of a commission? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:55

Well, it depends on the artist. Um, so, uh, but yeah, so the, the, the conversations kind of starts with that of like, okay, well, what, you know, really, I think what's important is understanding the priorities of the artist, right? Like, like what's important to them, uh, to the translation of their work into glass. And so, you know, what I find my role is, is like kind of to, to help them with that transition and that understanding of the material. Right. So you don't want to like throw someone in and like say, okay, you, you you don't want to just translate somebody's painting into glass, right? I think the idea is that glass kind of brings something to the table that can add a total new dimension to somebody's work. And, you know, it's this concept of light, right? So rather than, you know, most painters are working with reflected light, glass, you're working with transmitted light, right? And so it's just that in itself kind of creates a totally different approach to really what works and what doesn't oftentimes. And so some of the artists, really want to be involved. Some of the artists like come in, they check in, they get a sense of what is going on, you know, they find their comfort level and they're gone, right? And they kind of trust us to do it, you know, but so, you know, each kind of commission of that is each, you know, collaboration is different depending on the artist and their personality and, you know, the way they work. And so, but at a minimum, we try to get the artists in the studio to kind of try things out right so they have a better understanding of it you know and obviously glass they're all intrigued with glass painting but you know they get into it and they're like okay this is really hard and I've got a lot of canvases I need to paint, so I'm going to go back to doing that, which is not a bad thing, right? I mean, we have amazingly talented glass painters. And so, you know, it's really fun to see that and that translation. And, you know, we have a few artists that we work with that continually come back, right? And like their work has evolved through their experience of being in the studio. And that's, to me, is super exciting and intriguing to see.

UNKNOWN 52:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:07

Once the piece is made in glass and it's no longer a piece of canvas that they've worked on with their own hands, who's the artist?

SPEAKER_02 52:17

They're the artists. They're the artists. with a studio. You can go back to Albrecht Durer and Hans Holbein. It's like all of these amazing artists work with stained glass studios. Stained glass isn't something that you do by yourself. It doesn't have to be. And so I think that this idea of collaboration is where the power comes from. And the idea that an artist can come in and just because they're not hands-on specifically with the project doesn't mean that that isn't their artwork and their creation in the sense that, you know, we're helping them kind of bring their vision to life, right? And so, you know, you think about like a Jeff Koons who's like the epitome of that, right? You know, it's not my favorite artist, but, you know, that kid doesn't touch much, you know? It's like, you know, so that's kind of the epitome of it. But that being said, you know, stained glass will always be a collaborative art form just simply because of the technical craft aspect of it that kind of never goes away, even though like we now are working so much with technology and computer artwork, you know, like artwork now, we'll take artwork from an artist, we put it into the computer and then it goes to a water jet. And so, you know, the craftsmanship is a very different thing, you know, but what we're looking at is something that's not possible otherwise, right, in glass. And so I think this is something that is kind of like pushing us into a new realm that is what it is. I mean, not everything has to be take a sheet of glass, cut it, paint it, and let it, right, or foil it. You know, it doesn't have to be that necessarily. So, you know, I think glass is so versatile that we're going to see a lot of different things. And so to me, I've always been really interested in technology and what, you know, art and technology together do, especially with such an ancient, you know, art form. You know, we're dealing with something that hasn't really changed in a lot of ways for a thousand years, right? I mean, it's technically very similar. What we're doing by hand is what was done, you know, a thousand years ago. And so, but when you bring technology into it, it kind of opens up a whole nother realm that I think to me is super intriguing.

SPEAKER_01 55:17

Mm-hmm. I agree. I want to ask you more about the technology, but first I just want to know when an artist comes to you and says, Hey, I have this idea. I want this made. Does the artist pay? Who pays you? Who's paying for that project to come to life?

SPEAKER_02 55:37

Um, well, it depends. A lot of times artists will come to us, um, either with a commission. So they have the commission and they bring it to us and we kind of are their fabricator collaborator. Um, uh, the dome, uh, James Jean, um, uh, self finances his work. So like he's, you know, just so successful. And so like, uh, kind of, uh, into pushing his own work that he self funds it. And he's got just this amazing collector base, right. That he's reached that level. And so, um, so yeah, he's, he's usually paying us. Um, and then a lot of times what we do with artists is that we, um, we submit together. So, uh, if an artist has a RFQ or RFP that they want us to be involved with them on to, to propose, uh, we work with them and then, um, yeah, the, the, you know, if they win the commission, then we, we work with them, uh, through the funding or wherever that's coming from. It's usually a public art project. So

SPEAKER_01 56:36

you did an Another project with James Jean called Gaia. It's an eight foot tall, three-dimensional crystal made entirely of fused glass and bound with lead in a custom steel frame. It is still, or it was at the Lott Museum in Seoul, South Korea. That thing's pretty cool. And made me think of that actually when you were talking about the new project, the three-dimensionality of it.

SPEAKER_02 57:04

Yeah. So that's James's project as well. Okay. Yeah, so James, you know, and this is like one of these amazing stories of an artist who, you know, James comes from like the comic book illustration world, Taiwanese American, who, you know, is this amazing drafts person, can draw and does amazing paintings and has a whole kind of look, you know, kind of very fantastical. And, you know, our relationship started with him, with an artist who works for us, who's a glass painter. as well, a friend of his, and said, hey, James is doing this project for a collector of his. And then once they're talking about doing a window. And so I was like, cool. So James came in and he kind of brought a design and we full-sized it and we talked about it. And then it died. The collector ran out of money. The window never got made. And then when the Kansas City project was kind of finishing up and I was looking for more work, trying to figure out Like, what are we going to do now? I called James. I said, James, let's, you know, let's bring this, let's make this window, you know? And so it'd be really cool to do as a triptych. And so he designed two other windows and I think it's in the book as well. Um, and, uh, he, um, he funded it, you know, he's like, yeah, I've got a show coming up that actually went to the, um, Murakami gallery in Japan. And he says, you know, I'd love to show it in that show and in Tokyo and said, awesome. So we built it. And, um, And he sent it off to Tokyo and he loved it, right? And so then that's when he said, well, let's do something in 3D. We talked about what's next. And so we talked about 3D and that's how Gaia, the idea of Gaia came up. And this idea of working in three-dimensionality, right? And like... you know, this is where stained glass is like, you know, it doesn't have to be a site-specific, right? It can be a standalone kind of thing. And why is, why is stained glass not fine art, right? To a certain extent. And so this, this kind of barrier of, of craft and art and design and fine art, you know, is, you know, we want to, we want to push those boundaries, right? And, and, and do that. And James is, you know, super capable of doing that because he's, he's so good about working in other mediums with his work. And so, yeah, so then Gaia ended up going to I think it's in Shanghai now. And so then we started talking about, well, what's next? You know, it was like, well, it'd be amazing to build something that you could walk inside of, right? And just be like in the window, so to speak. And so that's where the Pagoda came in. And so Pagoda is what we're working on now. That's this 14 foot by 18 foot dome that you'll be able to walk inside of. And the cool thing about that is that, yeah, it's completely been built in the computer. So like I said, we've been working on it for two and a half years. There's over 7,000 pieces of glass in it. And one of the intriguing things is that he didn't want a big frame, right? So we are talking to some engineers that helped us design a structure that has our structural glass in it. So we are going to be taking the art glass. It's all fused. It'll be laminated to a architecturally piece of laminated glass. And then there's going to be kind of a metal frame that will hold that in place. And so there's no, like in theory, there's no frame, even though there's some metal in between the pieces of glass, they're kind of interlocked just to keep it in place. But like, you are going to be able to go to this dome, take out one of the panels and it'll stay intact, or we can pack this up into crates and ship it somewhere. And there's no frame, there's no like infrastructure that we have to work within. And so it's, It's been, I think, you know, just like I said, it's totally evolved over the last two and a half years of where we started and where it's going and where it's at. And, you know, I think it's going to really change the way we work in the future because it is opening us up to a whole new realm of possibilities, not only like in, you know, self-standing pieces, but I think architecturally and how this can be incorporated into architecture and that kind of thing. to me, I think super exciting. And I think, you know, stained glass is kind of having a resurgence on all levels, right? And I think this is one that I think is super intriguing. You know, like you think about the work of like Brian Clark, who was one of the few that really kind of collaborated with other artists and did these like massive kind of domes and massive installations that I think we're gonna see a new generation of that coming soon. So, um, yeah, it's, it's, uh, it's been great. James has been amazing.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:01

Sounds wild.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:03

Yeah. And you can follow like on our, on our Instagram or on James's Instagram. He's, he's, uh, got an amazing Instagram site. So, um, we will be setting it up, uh, to, uh, we're going to start, you know, tracking it. We're going to set up a camera to kind of see the, uh, how this thing kind of comes to life comes out of the ground, so to speak. And, and, uh, that's, that's, uh, you know, um, a whole nother, side of things where it can go, you know, and he's into NFTs, you know, this will be, you know, there'll be a whole NFT tie in with this thing. And so it's just a really kind of dynamic thing that, you know, called The Power of Glass. Glass is kind of pushing us into a whole new venture.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:48

Do you know his Instagram off the top of your head? If you don't, that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:52

I don't. I think it's James Jean, I think.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:55

Okay. Well, guys, I'll put a link in the show notes. I'll find it and make sure we can all check it out and give it a follow. You did a collaboration with an artist named Amir Fala. You guys have done multiple projects. Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:26

Well, like you said, there's three of them. They're on an open terrace on the eighth floor, like you said, and then they are about 20 feet from each other. And so they're kind of in a line. They run kind of east-west, and they're lined up north-south, but they're running east-west. And then when you're looking at them, you can kind of... see through them. You can look at them all together or you can look at them separately. And then Amir's work is really amazing because he's used these amazingly vibrant colors and they're very kind of natural and leafy and organic. So there's all this kind of these different kind of vines and leaves and things that kind of go through. And he calls them portals because they're like doors. They represent doors and then they represent different aspects of the community. So it's in the kind of Koreatown part of la so there's like a korean influenced one a lot of victorian homes that were historically in that area so there's kind of a victorian kind of framework and so um yeah those those are um uh really amazing and and again like uh each of those uh the glass we created by fusing the pieces together so we like each one has about two dozen types of glass that we custom made through fusing and then created, you know, leaded panels off of that custom-made glass. And so, yeah, they're really intriguing. And, you know, Amir's one of those artists who are actually working on another set of windows currently in the studio of his that are kind of unbelievable. But he started in the gallery world with a piece and then, you know, a self-portrait of his own and then, you know, gets these public art projects. And so he keeps coming back now he's really interesting because helping us push that line of fine art, because he's at a point now where he can get, you know, a lot of galleries want his work and he says, well, but I want to do glass. And so, you know, we're seeing that as a fine artist, you know, the idea of working glasses is really now intriguing. We're seeing that in the fine art world. So I think it's exciting to see where that goes.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:53

I think so too.

UNKNOWN 1:05:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:55

And then one of my favorites is a piece called We Will Walk Right Up to the Sun by Sarah Kane. It's at the Air Tran at the San Francisco International Airport commissioned by the San Francisco Art Commission. It's so pretty. Do you want to talk about that one a little bit?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:14

Yeah, that's amazing. Sarah is like an abstract painter, like super vibrant, you know, kind of has a little 1980s vibe to her work. And, you know, I call her our punk rock You know, when she came in, she didn't want to listen to anybody. She just like this was her first glass commission. It was like over 100 feet long. Right. Oh, my God. It's like she just jumped into it, you know, because she'd been given this commission, which was amazing. And, you know, she is a type of person. She's been a rebel all her life and she didn't want to follow any rules. And again, that's kind of intriguing when you bring somebody into a glass studio who doesn't want to follow any rules, but glasses has its way, right? It's, you can't make glass do what it doesn't want to do. And so she, you know, started working with an artist selecting glass. She was very hands-on on the glass selection. She, you know, ironically was really influenced by Frank Lloyd Wright, you know, for an abstract painter that doesn't seem like an influence that you would have, but there are, there is this kind of crazy cross pollination between Frank Lloyd Wright and, and abstract painting with Sarah. And, you know, she was interesting too, because she wanted nothing to do with fusing when she started, you know, and a lot of artists don't like they, they want the tradition, like they, you know, stained glass has this, my, my big thing right now is like, everyone has a preconceived notion of what stained glass is. Right. It's like, you know, you asked me, what is stained glass to you? And they say, Oh, it's my, you know, I grew up in a church and I saw this window or, you know, my grandmother did, you know, glass in the garage and so everyone has this association or preconceived notion of what they think stained glass is right and so what's what's amazing we're working with people like sarah is that she just kind of blows all that up right it's like she doesn't she doesn't care she doesn't you know and uh but there's still this sense of what um stained glass should be, right? And it should be a piece of glass and lead and this and that. And it's like, it doesn't have to be that. And so when she started the project, she wanted to do any fusing. And then the more time she spent in the studio, she realized, whoa, I can do that. I can do this. I can do that. So yeah. So for an abstract painter, you know, you think about working with Frit, it like, it's like kind of mind boggling, right? Because you can totally control what the glass is and what it does and the transitions and all that just opens up a whole nother realm. And so she started integrating more and more fused glass in her projects, you know, because she did more projects after this one. And yeah, she's got some projects coming up as well. And so, yeah, she was, you know, and she did, she got like super good at it super fast over time, right? Because somebody who, like I said, is working with color, you know, and these kind of combinations of color in the relationship, which is what her work is a lot of it's about. And so it was really intriguing and she had a lot of fun um like picking the saturday sheets from bullseye you know if you know what those are yeah this is kind of the where they bullseye kind of lets their folks make these amazing sheets of glass and so she was going over to bullseye and picking out you know these amazing sheets that we were incorporating in and so that was that was really fun

SPEAKER_01 1:09:35

that is fun is that where you if you are just doing regular glass is bullseye your go-to

SPEAKER_02 1:09:41

well for fusing

SPEAKER_01 1:09:42

yeah okay

SPEAKER_02 1:09:43

but uh yeah for traditional work We're primarily working with Lamberts and some Sanjuice and, you know, Kokomo, whatever, we use everybody's glass, you know, depending on what it is. You know, everyone, I think everyone has their kind of look, right? Their signature look. And so, you know, I think, you know, you just think about like Lamberts and Sanjuice, you know, you think about their palettes and, you know, kind of just very subtle differences, right? That kind of have their own personalities. So again, one of the amazing things about working in glass is how each fabricator has their own kind of look and feel.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:23

Do you get your glass directly from the manufacturer? Yes. Uh,

SPEAKER_02 1:10:31

if we can, yeah, I mean, we're buying, obviously, uh, Lambert's comes through Bentheim and, um, you know, Hollander here in our, in California where, you know, if we need something, we go down there and grab that. Um, so, and then obviously we have a lot of glass in stock.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:46

I love Hollander. I miss Hollander. I miss going to that Hollander down there. I, I've said it a couple of times in the podcast, how much I love them. I'm like, please return my emails. Please be a sponsor. I, I talk about you all the time. I love you, Hollander. I saw a tour online of the studio space and I think the Highland Park one. And I think I saw three main rooms that things are being made. Is that correct? Can you kind of tell me what those workspaces are like, how large they are, how many work tables there are?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:20

Well, yeah, I guess there are three main rooms, but there's a lot more. So we have a lot of different rooms. And yeah, our Highland Park space is very unique in the sense that it's an old art school, right? And it's been here forever. It's on the National Register of Historic Places. And it's all these different small rooms. And so you're going from room to room depending on what you're doing. And so when you first walk in to our studio, on the left, we have the designers working. So they have a little bit of privacy. They're not kind of in the flow of things. But off to the right, we kind of have our meeting space. And then you go into the cutting room, which is like the wow room, because we've got all the samples on the glass and the windows and everyone loves that room. And it is an amazing room just because the natural light is hitting those windows almost all day. And so we've got four tables that are in there. And then all of the glass we have, you know, almost everything. I'd say 500 types of glass in stock that we keep in stock. And so some of our glass racks are in that cutting room. And then you would go next, you go into the glazing room and in the glazing room, we have, I think five tables and it's pretty tight, but that's kind of where we're doing most of the glazing and then cementing would go. Now we have an upstairs room where we're doing the cementing and then we have a basement that's, uh, where the air force project is going on right now. And so there's, I think six tables down there and, you know, we had to set up a place to take photographs and stuff like that. But yeah, that's, that's kind of the primary thing right now. And most of our paying hours are at our new facility because all of the kilns were moved over there. So, you know, it's, it's, you know, I, I hope to kind of, you know, consolidate into one space, you know, like having multiple spaces is not fun running transport. putting glass is not right. Like the ideal.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:27

No, no. How many people do you have on staff?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:34

We were almost up to 30 before the pandemic. And then we cut down to about 15.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:45

And not like we didn't let people go. Most people just kind of made life decisions. And, you know, people wanted to strike out on their own or go back to family or whatever it was. And so we were down to about 15. And then now we're about back up to about 27. So about 27.

UNKNOWN 1:14:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:04

Both admin and in the studio.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:08

Has anyone been there as long as you?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:12

Yeah?

UNKNOWN 1:14:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:12

Yeah, Hector's been here longer than me. He's been here almost 30 years. And, you know, Alex has been here over 20 years. Those are our glazers. And, yeah, I mean, those guys are just like, like I said, I could watch them glaze all day. It's just amazing. They're so, so good. And, you know, I love those guys. Yeah, we've got some long-termers.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:37

Do you have a training or like an apprentice program there?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:41

We do. It's kind of unofficial. It kind of depends, you know, because people come with different things. But, you know, generally when people come, they have to start cementing. Right, right. Kind of work their way up and through. And so it kind of depends on what's going on. But, yeah, there's some, you know, obviously some training going on with everybody within the studio. You know, this is amazing when you work in a studio with multiple people. It's amazing. everybody's work affects everybody else's work, right? And so that's super important that you understand all aspects and phases of the project to really know, you know, if you're cutting glass, what the glazier expects, right? When you're doing it yourself, it's different because you're your own, customer in a way.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:31

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:31

Yeah. But if somebody's just cutting and somebody's just glazing, you know, that, that has to, that has to, you know, those relationships, there has to be an understanding there and relationship and all that kind of stuff. So it's pretty dynamic.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:43

Is safety a big focus at Judson studios?

SPEAKER_02 1:15:46

Safety?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:48

Always.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:50

Yeah. Super important. And again, another kind of nice thing about SGA is that kind of helps with guidelines and understanding what other people are doing for safety and, you know, safety is expensive, but it's like fundamental, you know, and, and, um, you know, you have to create a safe environment for, for folks to work in. So yeah, it's, it's, uh, something we work on pretty regularly.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:13

Do you mean it's expensive just in terms of like providing PPE or do you like, why is it expensive?

SPEAKER_02 1:16:19

Yeah. You know, PPE, you know, ventilation systems, uh, disposal, um, you know, uh, smocks, you know, training Training, all that stuff, you know, it adds up, you know, and it's part of cost of doing business. And that's super important, you know, especially when you have multiple people working in shared spaces, you know, if you're as strong as the safest or the non-safest person, right? So it's really important that everybody's understanding what's acceptable and what's not.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:52

Right. And one thing that Megan said that really stuck with me is that when you do run a studio where you have new employees coming in to get their lead tested on their first day. So you have a baseline.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:04

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. You don't know where they're coming from and where they've been. And, you know, like when we were doing a lot of light testing and like, you know, we, we do it, we don't do it monthly. We do usually do it at least twice a year, sometimes more depending on the situation, but you know, and if somebody's needs to be washed a little more closely, but you know, sometimes we've had people in here that were like, painting houses on the weekends you know and like stripping paint on a house and like we couldn't figure out why this person was having high lead levels until we figured that out it's like oh well they're stripping paint out of houses on the weekend it's like that so that's why it's important like to get that baseline and understand like you know that you can't control what people are doing completely but you really want to control any kind of exposure and some people more sensitive than others and stuff like that so yeah it's important to really kind of track that but you know in in I hate to say this, but I think lead is not as super dangerous in the stained glass industry, I don't think, just simply because you have to ingest it somehow. As long

SPEAKER_00 1:18:13

as

SPEAKER_02 1:18:14

you're washing your hands and doing some fairly basic practices to keep lead contained, it's more about taking it home to your kids. Other younger people have more difficulty dealing with lead in their system. As long as you're staying on top of it, it's not a Because that is one of the questions like on a tour we get is like, well, what about lead? You know, you work with lead and, you know, or, you know, we install a leaded window somewhere that, you know, people see just like everyone freaks out. It's like, you know, really lead is not, you know, obviously you need to be safe, but it's not as, it's not a freak out material.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:55

Right. Right. What did Megan say? She was like, it's not like you filter your water over your stained glass panel. So that's very true. I saw on your website, it says you're EPA lead safe. You're certified as EPA lead safe. What does that mean? Does somebody come to your studio and kind of inspect it and give you a stamp?

UNKNOWN 1:19:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:18

No, I think that's actually, it's more simple than that. I think you kind of fill out what you're doing and how you do it. And it's a form that you can get off of the EPA's website. So it's pretty straightforward, actually, as long as you're kind of maintaining that. And I think they can come, you know, you're kind of, they can come and investigate if they want to. But overall, it's basically kind of, you know, stating what you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:46

Kind of like a checklist of things that you're making sure you're doing right do you have any brand loyalties in your studio like what kind is there like one kind of soldering iron that everybody uses one kind of solder what like what's the what are the brands um I

SPEAKER_02 1:20:10

think that's a good question. You know, I think it kind of depends on what it is, I guess. But yeah, I mean, I think we're not really brand loyal in the sense of, you know, we have to use this or that. I think there's some pretty good selections out there, but yeah, that's, I don't know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:31

I'm going to come poke around next time I'm in town. Okay. I do want to circle back to the technology thing because being in a studio that's been around for so long, I'm sure the way you do things now, obviously, as we said, has evolved since your great, great, great grandfather. What technological innovations have been brought into the studio? You mentioned the water jet. What else?

SPEAKER_02 1:20:57

Oh, gosh. Well, technology. I think the water, just the big one, you know, fusing, obviously, I think is a huge technological advance that changes everything. And, you know, I think the design side really is where most of the, you know, like technology really takes place. You know, our designers work on, they've actually just shifted to working more on their iPad and Procreate. You know, we worked in Photoshop and illustrator for quite a while and being able to kind of design in Photoshop, go into illustrator, and then all of the working drawings, you know, everything kind of coming out of the printer, so to speak, you know, instead of doing a hand, like a cartoon, you know, and that was one of the big things that we did is like, cartoons are amazing. Like you, you think about how beautiful cartoon full-size cartoons are, but they're, they just take up so much time. Right. And so our priority for so long was like, how do we, how do we get the end user the most value for the end user, right? And like drawing a cartoon does not add a lot of value to a consumer, right? Not the end user, because it's something we roll up and we stuff in our archives, right? And so if we could like shorten this design time on the front end time of getting into fabrication as quickly as possible and really spend more time on like more time and money on painting, for example, as opposed to a full-size cartoon, that was, I think, a game changer for us.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:30

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:30

And now like the Pagoda is being built in Rhino. So the fact that Rhino is a software that is a 3D software that we're finding has amazing capabilities for stained glass. And so rather than using Illustrator, we're using Rhino and that just allows us to do anything we want. So we can go to the printer and print out a traditional cartoon, a line work and kind of work that, or we can send it to the water jet or whatever it is that we want to do, we can do. And then Grasshopper, which is associated with Rhino, allows us to run scripts. And so we can create a lot of fluctuations on or interpretations of like lead lines or cut lines and all of these things that allow us a lot more flexibility in terms of how something actually ends up getting fabricated. I think technology gives us a lot of capability because, you know, what we do, all of us in terms of working in Stingloss is expensive, right? It's like expensive to make, expensive materials, expensive to ship, expensive to insure, you know, all of these things that like are such an expensive thing. You know, we're constantly looking for ways to kind of allow costs to really, you know, how do we capture those costs in an efficient manner? And so, you know, that's why I feel like technology has a big role in the future because if we do want this to be, you know, something that continues to live on, we have to figure out how to make it in a somewhat cost-efficient manner.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:08

Good answer. Why,

SPEAKER_02 1:24:11

thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:16

You do quite a bit of work for Sacred Spaces. What percentage of that would you say accounts for the work coming out of your studio?

UNKNOWN 1:24:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:24

Well, it varies, you know, it used to be 80%. Now, I'd say we're probably closer to 40% religious

SPEAKER_00 1:24:32

work.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:33

And, you know, part of that is, is kind of where my focus has been, like, I love religious work. And I think that's, you know, always be an important part of what we do. But my, my path, you know, and I look, so I love that. But my passion really is in public art, working with artists, working galleries, working with designers, kind of in, you know, more sacred ways. sorry, more secular spaces in the sense of, you know, I think there's a spiritual relationship with St. Glass, you know, as it is, it doesn't, doesn't have to be in a church or religious institution. You know, it's, I think getting it out to the public, I think, you know, creates a spiritual experience in itself. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:18

Yeah. I agree. I totally agree. Yeah. My next question is a little personal. You don't have to answer it if you don't want to, but I imagine when you're working with that client, the Sacred Spaces client, the importance of the story being told in the glass, the message, the feeling of the work is something that is a pretty big focus. How does your faith fit into those conversations and meetings?

SPEAKER_02 1:25:47

Yeah, that's a good question. I have a, I mean, this is a whole nother conversation, I think, a very long thing to address because, you know, my belief system, I don't think conflicts necessarily. I mean, I was raised Catholic and so I still have very, you know, close kind of affinity to Catholicism, but I also am very, you know, I think there's a lot of maybe things I don't like so much about it. And so I'm not a practicing Catholic. Um, but, uh, I, you know, and I don't have any ill feelings. I mean, I, I believe that it's a very, you know, um, important, um, religious, like all religions are, I think are important. And I think this is a personal journey. And I think my, my faith is, I, you know, I, I believe in a, in a higher power and a higher force. And I believe that it's interpreted in a Yeah, without getting too kind of esoteric. I don't know if we want to go down that road. But yeah, I believe that faith and kind of a higher force is at work at all times in our lives and in everyone's lives. And I think that I really do believe that that is like stained glass is a visual interpretation of that. I truly believe that, that, that, that glass can have that power and that effect. And, and that's a very personal expression. So I believe that everybody's interpretation of that is, is works on a different level. And so I do enjoy the religious institutions. You know, I think, I think biblical stories are extremely informative. I just maybe interpret them maybe differently than I did when I was kind of younger. So I'll kind of leave it at that.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:56

Okay, good job. That was another good job. You danced around that really gracefully considering. I

SPEAKER_02 1:28:02

did study diplomacy, so I have a little some of those skills left.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:07

That was good. Okay, totally different. We're going to take a hard left turn. I'm going to ask you, what was your experience being a judge on the show, the Meet Your Maker Showdown?

SPEAKER_02 1:28:24

It was fun. Yeah, I mean, I had a lot of fun. It was, you know, there were a lot of limitations on that show. I did help them quite a bit on that. But there was a lot of constraints. I mean, they just didn't have a budget. And, you know, I think the format has had a lot to be, you know, kind of tried differently. You know, I think they, I, I, I think it's great that they brought these crafts and kind of, you know, some, some very talented people to, to participate. Um, but I think that, um, it needs a lot more kind of, uh, depth, you know, I don't know that it was as deep, you know, it was like, you think about, uh, for example, you know, these kinds of reality thing, competition kind of things are, I think are, you know, obviously pretty prolific now, but like, if you think of like, uh, blown away you know I think yeah it's it's amazing to watch you know watch these people make glass but I think what is kind of interesting is like getting to know the people right so I think that's part of it and I don't think meet your makers really allowed us to get to know the people participating and it was a very quick turnaround thing and it just didn't have the depth that it needed but but I love the fact that it got some attention and you know there was some great people involved and yeah it was it was fun to do

SPEAKER_01 1:29:42

Would you do it again if they asked you to come back?

SPEAKER_02 1:29:48

Well, they're not going to, it's not going to do a second season. So, so we knew that, but yeah, you know, I think about that a lot. Cause I, you know, I think, I think obviously media has a strong, you know, it's an influencer, right. And the idea that I guess we still call it television. Right. But, whatever we call it, you know, I think, I think there's a lot of possibilities with it. It just needs, it needs somebody who really wants to like back it and get into it. Like, like, you know, I think blown away is a successful program. Right. And I think stained glass needs something like that. You know, I'd also love to see like a format where it's like, I don't know, tying in say history with contemporary artists or something like that. You know, like maybe it could be more of a, there's just, you know, you think about all of the, the stained glass installations around the world that people just have never seen before. or like

SPEAKER_00 1:30:44

the

SPEAKER_02 1:30:44

history of what they are. I mean, there's so much I think that can be done. It's just, somebody's got to commit and do it and, you know, making tie-ins. So for example, like your work, like you think, like you look at, I think of when I see your work, I think of Sigmar Polk, right? Like in the use of like agate and stuff like that, right? And it's like how that might influence you and like how these things are tied in. I mean, I think a show that kind of delved in a little bit more to that, I think would be a little bit more interesting. But yeah, the format of Meet Your Makers was not ideal. I think it needs to be more... If it's going to be a competition scenario, I think it needs to be something like a... baking show, you know, or blown away kind of thing where, you know, the other kind of, I think, fault of the show was that the participants weren't forced to do something that wasn't in their kind of comfort zone to a certain extent, right? Like, so Janelle could do what Janelle does, right? In both her instances. And so, and what she does is amazing, right? And that's, you know, why she won. And so the fact that they were, weren't, you know, you think about blown away or the challenges that are presented there, there may be something that, that, that forces somebody to do something they don't can just do out of there because they didn't have time, right. To really get them into something that, you know, they would have to totally rethink and that kind of thing. So it's, it's challenging, like, you know and the thing about blowing glasses, it's kind of like a performance art in itself, right. Like this amazing thing. And you get an immediate result, whereas like putting a stained glass window together, like for me i love it like i said i could stand around watch somebody glaze all day but not everybody can

SPEAKER_01 1:32:27

it's definitely not as cool to watch as somebody blowing glass like that is very much like juggling or something you know and there's multiple people usually involved and um i agree yeah i totally agree i agree and the

SPEAKER_02 1:32:41

thing about like uh even with fusing you know with warm glass and it's like you got to stick it in the kiln you gotta wait it's like you won't see it until tomorrow you know it's so it's it's not like this like i said a performance art where you're physically making the piece, right? You're allowing heat and gravity to do its thing rather than, you know, blowing the end of a blowpipe.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:02

Right. We're not blowing bubbles.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:07

But that being said, you know, the, the beauty of like the fusing studio is like, you know, the reveal, right? Like going and opening the kiln every morning is just like this amazing thing because you learn something, you know, I love it because we are learning something every day. Like there's so much R and D that goes into those projects and one project informs the next one. So, so everything's constantly evolving, you know, and, and where's, you know, we think of this traditional stained glass is really, uh, it's a personal expression, right? So like what you do is very different from what everybody else does, no matter what, like we're all doing our kind of personal interpretation through the medium, but it's also like becoming an expert at each of those things. And like, the more you gain the knowledge and the technique, like the better you get, the more options you have, the more you can do, the better it looks, you know, all of these things, right. Which is just kind of like, it's very methodical. Whereas with fusing, it's like, experiential right it's like you you're putting something in and you kind of know what it's going to do but you don't know 100 and like generally it's happy surprises

SPEAKER_01 1:34:17

yeah

SPEAKER_02 1:34:18

um and uh but it but it opens up a whole new realm of of what you can do and and so i think that's what's so so amazing about it

SPEAKER_01 1:34:27

i love how excited you are about kiln forming

SPEAKER_02 1:34:31

Uh, yeah, you know, I, I really do believe that it will change the face of, you know, what we know of stained glass. Uh, and I believe that it's, uh, going to be like, I feel like we're just scratching the surface of it. You know, I think, uh, and I go into this into my book and that, you know, the warm glass and bullseye and that community, uh, it kind of came out of the studio art glass movement. You know, in Harvey Littleton, we owe, you know, the glassblowers. Like, so you think about Dale Chihuly, you know, obviously came out of that Harvey Littleton world and fused glass did too, to a certain extent. But everybody knows Chihuly, right? And I feel like Chihuly is just like completely dominated that kind of aspect of glass blowing. It was like Chihuly this, Chihuly that, right? And I think fused glass and kiln forming hasn't had its day yet because it's, in essence, it's kind of a branch off the same tree. It's just hasn't totally been tapped into yet. And I think that's coming, so. I

SPEAKER_00 1:35:37

agree.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:41

David, what do you want? First of all, is it Dave or David? I probably should have asked you at the beginning. Yeah,

SPEAKER_02 1:35:48

it doesn't matter. Dave's fine.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:51

Okay. Dave, what do you want to leave behind? What is the mark that you want to leave on this industry?

SPEAKER_02 1:35:57

Yeah, that's a really good question. I think part of it is that Collaboration is the answer. You know, I think, I think kind of, I was talking earlier that it's collaboration, not competition. And, you know, I think competition is healthy. Competition is just a, you know, it's kind of like a selection process. And I believe that, for example, you know, obviously you lose more commissions than you win, right? If you're, if you're going for these kinds of competitions and you're competing, you will, you know, everybody loses, you know, 80, 90% of the jobs they go after. Like you're only going to get a certain amount, but I truly believe that generally the right person is selected. As hard as that is to hear if you don't get selected, it's like, okay, that wasn't meant for us or whatever. And I think what's important is that you take something from those experiences. You have to take something from the losses. You have to take something from the wins. So I think that's part of it. And then I think the other part of it is that I would hope that people kind of try new things like i think i think the idea is like i came from and this is what's interesting about like the relationship with narcissists is that narcissists came from a a totally independent free kind of like um no history constraints of of of stained glass for example that he could start his career from scratch in a way whereas i came from my career from like this five generations right and so it's like a very totally different experience you bring those two things together it's kind of you know it's been really fun right and so um what i think i hope people understand is that

SPEAKER_00 1:37:45

to

SPEAKER_02 1:37:46

share like to be collaborative to share to be open and to follow your gut like express yourself in your work you know because that's what makes it good and uh you know if you're trying to copy somebody or do something else it's like it's never what it should be right you have to find your own place and expression in it and i think that's you know for me i'm not an artist necessarily you know I'm kind of an artist in a different way but uh I've had to find my own expression in a kind of long line of things that like just sitting there kind of doing what has always been done before was not interesting to me and so um I think that if you are passionate about this that you have to really kind of follow your instincts right and and listen to yourself and know yourself to really kind of do your best work and so um I guess that's leaving something. Is that leaving a message?

SPEAKER_01 1:38:40

Yeah, I think so. Yeah, it totally is. Okay, I'm going to ask you the final three questions that I ask everybody. The first one is, who are your favorite artists? And this doesn't have to be stained glass.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:56

Yeah. Well, Diego Velasquez is my top of my list, right? So, you know, having spent so much time in Spain and studying Spanish art and, you know, I spent a lot of time in the Prado Museum, like the genius of his work kind of opened me up to thinking about art in a very different way. It's like understanding how art works on so many different levels, right? And no matter what it is. And especially for me coming from like a politics kind of interest, you know, to think about somebody like that and the importance that that figure had in the history of like representing a period of history that is like so significant. You know, I think that's like the power of art, right? And I think, you know, Diego Velasquez kind of embodies that for me. I love what Kandinsky was doing. It's a totally different thing, but what Kandinsky, I think, has done is super important. And then, of course, like Burne-Jones, I think, has been super influential on my interest in glass and his work and paintings, I think, are amazing. Turner and his... kind of the influence that he had on the art world is kind of intriguing to me and in a tie-in with John Ruskin, who I'm a big John Ruskin fan. If you haven't read any John Ruskin or know anything about John Ruskin, I would say that you need to kind of find John Ruskin because he's an amazing figure that historically, because he had a really weird personal life, has been kind of under-acknowledged, but he was a genius and he's... did more for the arts and crafts movement and art than I think almost any other figure in the history of art critics and stuff. And so, you know, I think that's it, you know, in terms of contemporary artists, I kind of, I don't necessarily have a favorite right now. Like, you know, I like what's going on in the art world, but I don't like when I think about favorite artists, I think historically.

UNKNOWN 1:41:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:21

What are your five to 10 year goals? Finish this piece.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:28

Yeah, absolutely. I think more in three and five years. So I can have a three, five year, the 10 year plan is a, is a little bit like things have been changing so fast for me that it's hard to kind of think about, but you know, what I hope that we're doing is, is creating a, You know, I want to go back to kind of what was also our original building was home of what was called the Royal Guild of Fellow Crafters. And it was this group of craftspeople that got together and kind of sold their wares. And, you know, they had meetings and they shared, you know, information, that kind of thing. I would love to see a 21st century guild of crafters that are working together. You know, it's not just glass. You know, I think it's great that we have a community of glass people that are working together, but I think we learn so much from the other people that we collaborate and work with, right? Whether it's, you know, sculptors or ceramicists or metal workers or, you know, but makers, right? People that are actually artisans and working in materials. And so, you know, I feel like we live in this kind of very digital world now, you know, and I think this information revolution and, you know, this digital kind of presence in our life can be overwhelming at times. And I think that things made by hand are going to have increase in value right like i think i think that's where you find the human spirit human souls and this this making of of beautiful things and creating environment right that's the other thing too is that the experiences you can have now with with our digital lives is is like you know you think about our kids now and like what they're exposed to at an age that we never like you like i rode my bike around and that's kind of like your world right now these kids can go online and see everything right and and uh And so... I think our role as stained glass people and as artisans and designers and artists is to create spaces that create experiences, right? And so I would love to, you know, work towards and being involved with more and more people to create, have glass a very important fundamental aspect of what we're doing, you know, but like this dome that we're building right now, I think is really changing the way we think about stained glass and what stained glass is traditionally and how we experience it. And, you know, all of the other kind of engineering and other things that have kind of technology that have played a role in it, I think it has kind of opened my eyes to feeling like this has a lot of different ways this can go. And so if you ask me, you know, in three years, my 10-year plan will be very different than now. But

SPEAKER_01 1:44:23

bringing glass to the world and more like experiential way.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:26

Yeah, absolutely. You know, creating destinations, right. Creating, you know, landmarks and, and, um, you know, things that you can go and experience that you can't like fully grasp from a computer screen.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:39

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:42

Yeah. And, and it's going to take other mediums to help the glass do that. Right. Like, like it's important to think about other ways that glass can take shape.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:51

So. Who would you like to nominate to be on Cracked?

SPEAKER_02 1:45:00

Oh, gosh. You know, there's so many

SPEAKER_01 1:45:09

people. I know. You can plead the fifth if you want.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:13

Yeah. No, I mean, I think... Indra, who's one of our glass painters and does her own work, is amazing. Indra in our shop would be an amazing person to talk to. I think Ariana, who's doing, she's primarily like conservation restoration. She's out of the

SPEAKER_01 1:45:33

open area. No, no, no. Yeah, we've already been speaking. I think she's,

SPEAKER_02 1:45:37

yeah. Yeah, Ariana's great. And then David Ruth. David Ruth, I think is super important too. You know, if you haven't heard of him or know him, he used to make sheet glass. back in the day and he was kind of instrumental in this idea of kind of fusing. And he primarily works in like casting now, but comes from the kind of stained glass world and his knowledge of glass is really pretty amazing. And so he's a super intriguing guy in terms of the way he looks at glass, you know, it wouldn't be your traditional stained glass kind of conversation, but he's, He's rooted in that. I think he'd be a kind of interesting person to talk to.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:22

Okay. Well, Dave, your family's history is a large part of all of our history as glass artists. And so I just really want to thank you for taking the time today to share it with us. And for the time you dedicate to it every other day as well with a book and continuing, you know, helping the process of bringing beautiful work coming out of Judson Studios and making art and glass more experiential in the world. Thank you for that.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:51

Thank you. And thanks for what you're doing. You You know, I think I'd encourage everybody to stick with it and continue to explore. And, you know, Stinglass is... is an amazing place. And wherever you are in your career, you still have places to go. That's the beauty of working in Stingglass is that I think, you know, and I think what you're doing is allowing people to really share their stories with other people. It's just super important. And, you know, I've appreciated what you've done and love spending this time with you.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:26

Thank you. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:28

Are you coming to the conference?

SPEAKER_01 1:47:30

I'm not sure we have a trap. We already, we have like family travel plans that month. So I just have to like figure, I just had to figure it out.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:37

Okay. We'll get you there. We'll get you to a conference at some point.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:39

Okay. I know. No, I really want to come. I feel like I've been hyping it so much that if I don't, if I don't go, it's like, yeah,

SPEAKER_02 1:47:48

you got to support Megan too. Megan's doing an amazing job. She's, she's fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:53

Oh, she's working so hard putting that thing together. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:57

Yeah. She's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:59

She is amazing. We'll be doing it

SPEAKER_02 1:48:00

with, the mosaics this year, which is super exciting too. You know, to think about mosaics and, you know, the crossovers there is really amazing. So we're super excited about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:12

Yeah, I know. That is really exciting. I saw that email she sent out. It's pretty cool. All right. Well, have a productive and wonderful day in your studio today and I'll talk to you soon.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:26

Yes. You better come see us next time you're in LA.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:28

I will. I will. Bye. Take care. To see more of the work coming out of Judson Studios, their Instagram is at Judson Studios. That's J-U-D-S-O-N-S-T-U-D-I-O-S. And mine is at Runa Glassworks. For the Cracked Patreon page members, David is offering a code for 20% off of his book, Judson Innovation in Stained Glass. Head to patreon.com And there is also a link in the show notes. Thanks to this episode's sponsor, Yakagini Glass. Yakagini has been producing the world's finest art glass since 1976. With their 2017 entry into the 96 fusible market and recent acquisition of Euroboros glass, Yakagini is quickly becoming your one-stop art glass manufacturer. Find out more, see the new Euro by Yak, and find your That's it for today, friends. Thank you for listening. And next week, I've got Megan McElfrish from the Stained Glass Association of America and Dawn Marie Zimmerman from the Society of American Mosaic Artists, who together are joining superpower forces to tell us some really exciting details about the upcoming inspirational and thought-provoking 2022 conference that will bring every facet of our industry I'll see you then. Bye!